NYC Murders

Episode 2

We hate to admit it but...some gay people are evil murderers *GASP*! It's not just the straights that are making killing a habit. So today, we're talking all about gay killers. But don't get it twisted! This episode is NOT a free pass to assume that all gay people are evil. I'm looking at you, conservatives! If you use this episode as an excuse to push your homophobic talking points, we're counting that as a crime.

Kevin's story is all about the gay banker worker murderer! NOT to be confused with the gang bang worker murder. That's a story for a different day. You'll hear how Jasvir Ginday's arranged marriage with Varkha Rani went terribly wrong. A little societal pressure to be straight never hurt nobody, right? WRONG.

And Brandon is taking us down a truly disturbing rabbit hole about "The Candy Man" Dean Corll and his 28 victims. Dean is the kind of serial killer that will keep you awake at night. But what does candy have to do with it? You'll have to tune in to find out! TRIGGER WARNING: child abuse, sexual assault, grooming and rape.

I'm sure you're all prepared to hear about murder with this podcast but this story involves some intense sexual trauma. Please take care of yourself! And if you're thankful to finally have a gay perspective on true crime, don't forget to rate and review the show. Also, share it with your friends because otherwise, you are a loser!

Transcript

00:00:02:17 - 00:00:07:29

Kevin + Brandon

Welcome to Homicide, The podcast.

00:00:08:01 - 00:00:28:24

Kevin + Brandon

I'm Kevin. And I'm Brandon. Welcome. Hello. Hello, Brian. How are you? I'm doing pretty well. How are you doing? I'm good. And is also here with us. Hi, Anna. Hi, everybody. How are you? I'm so good. Good. We also have an audience today, you know, our second episode. And we already have an audience and we're so excited. So we have Ethan, who is behind the camera.

00:00:28:24 - 00:00:56:18

Kevin + Brandon

Hi, Ethan. Hello. And then we have our friend Gigi here, who's just lovely. Hi. From far away. And then we, of course, have Mardy, Miss Martina, and Kick is a cat and dog here with us, so I'm excited for this week's episode. But, Brandon, you did something fun today. Tell everyone. I did. I feel so random to talk on a murder podcast, but I went to a sewing class.

00:00:56:20 - 00:01:15:10

Kevin + Brandon

It's not weird, but it was fun. I'm sure that was an accident. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it could be both of us, but it was actually really fun. I did a sewing class once before where I went with our friends Kelly to in Brandon in Denver, and it was all was Brandon. It was Brandon.

00:01:15:13 - 00:01:33:15

Kevin + Brandon

I thought your time about yourself. I'm sorry. No, no, I don't typically talk about myself in third person, but I went to this class and it was at this older woman's basement of her home, and it was really creepy. It was like some was someone's grandmother's home. It was really fun. We had a good time, but it wasn't really a sewing class.

00:01:33:15 - 00:01:52:11

Kevin + Brandon

This one was actually like a class where they actually went through the machine and talked about the machine, what it does and like the technical side of it, which was super cool. How many times did your needle like, you know, when you're sewing and your needles like fucker and it comes undone and it stops working that just like, you know, when it comes on threaded, that's what it's called just once.

00:01:53:05 - 00:02:08:10

Kevin + Brandon

I'm so talented. I love that. I love that you're doing that. But at the same time you're doing something completely different than I. What were you doing today? I was an improv again today with all three humans that are here, besides Brandon are in my class and they fucking killed it today. And it was a good class.

00:02:08:10 - 00:02:24:20

Kevin + Brandon

It was good fun. And my voice, I am not in puberty and I just my voice is weird right now because. wait, I have. I have. I may have had a drink and it might have had vodka and I'm allergic to it and I lose my voice, so. so this should be a fun one. I don't know what I've ordered.

00:02:24:22 - 00:02:41:27

Kevin + Brandon

So you're going to be a little prepubescent? Yeah, but I was. I just got over being sick, so. I don't know. It's probably the of thing. Anyway, we'll see how this goes. So welcome. We're excited. We have two new murders for you. So, like we talked about last time, our flow is that Brandon comes to the table with a murder that I don't know about.

00:02:42:04 - 00:02:59:11

Kevin + Brandon

I come to the table with a murder that he does not know about, and then we talk about it. Except this is the second episode that I know your murder. Brennan stopped spilling beans and giving away secrets away. Either. It's a good one. I'm excited for it. Today's episode is New York Murders specifically to New York City. New York City, Yes.

00:02:59:11 - 00:03:22:08

Kevin + Brandon

So before we dive into the murders, remember that this is episode two, which launches on October 31st with two episodes. We were going to do three originally and then and our producers like. And that's aggressive because our episodes are too long. So but we also didn't get the last story done yet. So also calling me out again because Brandon did get it done, I did not know it's almost ten but I've been further along.

00:03:22:08 - 00:03:48:20

Kevin + Brandon

But that's like typical in you and I relationship went I'm a little bit more like planned out and you're more like, Yeah, let's just do it now. I'm more aloof. Yeah, yeah. It's a good word. I know. All right, well, follow. We're on several places, but you can listen to us anywhere that podcasts are so aired, aired. And then we're on YouTube, which is where you can see this lovely video of us making faces and all this weird set because that's what we do.

00:03:48:27 - 00:04:06:00

Kevin + Brandon

And follow us on social media. Boom. All right, done. Brandon, are you ready for your episode? I'm super excited for me. All right, let's dive in. All right, cool. I said I'm already ready already. Brandon. You know I love that, right? I know you do. That's why I said it. Okay? My best friend that unfortunately died by suicide.

00:04:06:07 - 00:04:17:23

Kevin + Brandon

She used to come over any time that I would see her, and we would. Whatever she would always say, I'm already ready already. And it was a fucking cue to say, and I love that you just said that. Well, we say it all the time, so it's not that much of a surprise, but it started with her. So I just did it.

00:04:17:25 - 00:04:39:17

Kevin + Brandon

Sorry, I stole it. You steal all the things. Okay, go ahead. Tell me everything. Okay, so this time I picked an even older story than before. Than the one in Tampa. Yes. So my New York story is not one of this century or the last one. Technically, it was 1990. And I just say it's not the next century.

00:04:39:19 - 00:05:18:11

Kevin + Brandon

I'll just read what I have that I do better with that for the most part. Okay. So I have it was an ordinary day on July 28th, 1841, when a few men were walking near Cybulski in Hoboken, New Jersey, right off of the Hudson and Cybulski Cave is actually Hoboken's oldest manmade cave, designed with a Gothic ARC style entrance in 1832 by the Stevens family, who wanted to take advantage of the natural spring on the property, which I thought was interesting because it's kind of I think from what I know, it's a little bit more rundown now, but I never would have thought that there would be a natural spring right off of in Hoboken.

00:05:18:12 - 00:05:36:11

Kevin + Brandon

The Hudson. Yeah. Or Springs is known to be gross. I don't know. Well, while these guys were looking at the Hudson water from Sybil's cave, they noticed something large floating in the Hudson River. And so the men grabbed a rowboat to check out what they what they were looking at. So as they reached the object, it was pretty obvious what it was.

00:05:36:11 - 00:05:55:17

Kevin + Brandon

So floating in the water, covered, invisible bruising, a torn dress and a hat and a tight strip of cloth. Tied around her neck was the body of Mary Cecelia Rodgers. Mary? bless her heart. I know she was floating. She was floating in the Hudson. In the Hudson. This was in the 1800s, 1841. So, I mean, that's it.

00:05:55:17 - 00:06:13:12

Kevin + Brandon

Not Hudson has been active with dead bodies for a very long time since the Europeans came over and stole the lands. So those people that are jet ski in in the Hudson and my God or classmate Nicole, we should ask her if she's seen dead bodies. Okay. Do you want to give context to that? Because they were just some random person named.

00:06:13:12 - 00:06:35:20

Kevin + Brandon

So yeah. Okay. This girl that we lovely, lovely woman that we do improv with works for a company that does like jet skis and all that kind of stuff on the Hudson, jet skis and like a boat with hot tubs. I don't know. We have to do it. Obviously. Like yachting. The yacht. Yes, I think I know the first ship, but the ship she's going to ship is going to ship.

00:06:35:21 - 00:06:57:03

Kevin + Brandon

She is a captain of the ship. So we're going to go. Okay, perfect. So this is the story of Mary Cecilia Rogers, so born in 1820 in Lyme, Connecticut, which I believe that's Lyme disease, comes from Lyme, Connecticut. I'm pretty sure that might need to be fact checked, but maybe they like 98% sure that's true, isn't it? Lyme I don't know.

00:06:57:03 - 00:07:16:12

Kevin + Brandon

Keep going. Anyways, if I made that up, I'm sorry. Okay. I'm a little bit more into Annie in Lyme, Connecticut. Mary grew up as an only child, so when she was 17, her father, James Rogers, died in a steamboat explosion, causing Phoebe Rogers to become a widow at a really early age. So this was back in the 1800s.

00:07:16:12 - 00:07:39:19

Kevin + Brandon

And being a woman in that time was worse than it is now, although there's a lot of things that need to change right now for women as well. But James was the breadwinner, so they had to figure out what to do from that financial burden pretty quickly. So eventually they ended up migrating to New York City in 1837, Phoebe began to run a boarding house off of Nassau Street in the now financial District of Manhattan to make ends meet.

00:07:39:19 - 00:07:55:20

Kevin + Brandon

And Mary would help. So now every source I read, which I read a lot of sources and since this is older story, there was a lot of different information. So I kind of just try to wrap it all together. Yeah, but every source I read talked about how gorgeous Mary grew up to be. So she was tall and slender with jet black hair.

00:07:55:26 - 00:08:23:20

Kevin + Brandon

Some people would talk about Mary as if she was naive and unaware of how dangerous people were in New York and how dangerous the world can be in general. Like she was a meek, intimate girl. So others talked about her, how she was working class. She was single, she was a virgin, yet she was sexually available. And sources stated that some considered her a whore because although she was a virgin, she had seductress like qualities that people thought of her as sexually available.

00:08:23:21 - 00:08:43:02

Kevin + Brandon

Okay. Can we address that real quick? Yes. Sexually available? Yeah, right. In the 1800s. Yeah. That's really fucking weird. Yeah. Are you sexually available? I mean, I think I think it's a weird way to put it. I know everybody could be successful, but just because you look attractive doesn't mean that you're just off sleeping with a bunch of people.

00:08:43:02 - 00:09:08:29

Kevin + Brandon

And I know. Well, and it's interesting that you're saying that she was meek and all these other things like that. People, liberals or. Yeah, socially. Well, people labeled her as that, but she was she had a very composed demeanor and but because she was attractive, although she was a virgin, people thought of her as as a seductress. So they thought that she was could have been a whore, that it was all a lie and all that kind of stuff, you know, fun stuff that we label women that we still do now.

00:09:08:29 - 00:09:29:24

Kevin + Brandon

So sexually available. Yeah. And then one thing that played a big role in in what people thought, which I didn't see this note right before you asked that question was what played a big role is that she was really independent. She had a really independent nature for a woman at that time, being that her mom was widowed, she was doing her own business, that she, Mary, just gradually became more independent.

00:09:29:24 - 00:09:49:27

Kevin + Brandon

So when Mary was 20, she ended up meeting a man named John Anders, what is also now the Tribeca area. So in the same area that she was in. Okay, so this is fun. Amazed by her looks, he propositioned Mary to work at his store to basically be an attraction to lure men in because she looked because she available.

00:09:49:27 - 00:10:04:07

Kevin + Brandon

Yes. And she was attractive and she had this like aura around her that would kind of bring in people kind of like what my mom says about you. You have like this or that people are just attracted to even, like, the strangest people. Yeah. Brandon's mom does say that a lot about me, that there's people. Okay, there's there's two things.

00:10:04:07 - 00:10:19:18

Kevin + Brandon

People either really fucking hate me or they really like me. But a lot of times I have a lot of people that come up to me like, you'll get groped in the middle of nowhere. People will, like, touch your beard or as happened in Target, do some weird shit together that when I've in a target. Yeah, I don't think it's that way.

00:10:19:18 - 00:10:41:10

Kevin + Brandon

Energy find that to be something about me. What? The people grope you? Yeah like we were at a parade in this find you to be groped you seen grope a ball We we were at a parade in Tampa and somebody came up to him who was walking the parade came up just to him in like his face and walked away.

00:10:41:17 - 00:10:54:22

Kevin + Brandon

Like they also kissed me. he kissed you, too? Yeah. Not on the lips, because I was, like, ill, you know. But no, there was this one time that we were in Target, and I was looking. I was walking in an aisle and there was a kind of a weird guy in the next aisle Brandon was with. Yeah.

00:10:54:24 - 00:11:11:21

Kevin + Brandon

And you could hear him talking. And it was one of those situations where you're like, If he comes over here and we show him any kind of attention, he will, something will happen. So we like, go to the next aisle and then he's in the eye and we're like, Fuck. So then he sees me and blinds it towards me and he's like, Can I touch your beard?

00:11:11:24 - 00:11:29:27

Kevin + Brandon

And I was like, Very weird. What do I? And I had a very long beard at that time that was like luscious. And I was Kevin said, Okay, sure. And so he started petting my beard. Yeah, well, he's saying that his wife won't let him have a beard. Correct. Because she doesn't like how scratchy it is. Yeah, but it was this guy.

00:11:29:28 - 00:11:54:15

Kevin + Brandon

She was 82. I don't know. She's probably late. Seventies, early. Sure. Yeah. And then he starts getting a visible boner and he said, I have to stop. I'm enjoying going into it. I think he's getting I'm getting too excited. Yeah. And I was like, some old people just get to a point where they feel like anything they do is okay and yeah, like they should be like, put in a corner and just sit in time out.

00:11:54:18 - 00:12:09:25

Kevin + Brandon

Like, that's like maybe don't go out in public. Yeah. Or don't, like, touch people's. This has happened actually several times, which is why I have a little bit sort of now, because it was done to like my nipples basically. It was quite long and gorgeous, but people kept touching it in a really awkward Turn your phone off, Brandon.

00:12:09:25 - 00:12:32:27

Kevin + Brandon

Sorry, but people kept touching it. Really weird. But yeah, I don't totally think that your mom's right, but Brandon's mom always says that there's something people are just just attracted to. Well, anyway, it's just like, same as the guy touching you in Target. Men would come just to see Mary because of the nature of the business being a cigar shop in the 1800s, it was kind of a shadier kind of place to go to.

00:12:32:29 - 00:12:52:15

Kevin + Brandon

You're not meeting the greatest people knowing how shady the clients was. Phoebe Mary's mom was absolutely against it. So Phoebe had a right to be wary because Anderson Shop was was a popular one. It was commonplace for people from all different kinds of backgrounds. Now, it wasn't just dangerous people like criminals and everything like that. There was a lot of notable people that would go there too.

00:12:52:15 - 00:13:17:17

Kevin + Brandon

So it was popular for Edgar Allan Poe in Washington. IRVING So some popular writers at the time, Mary ended up persuading her mother to allow her to go work there, and so she ended up working there anyways. So Mary attracted many people in men would flirt with her all day, and it was published that there was there were even be times where people would just stand in the store all afternoon just to exchange glances with her, which is super fucking creepy.

00:13:17:19 - 00:13:50:13

Kevin + Brandon

I wonder if this is how celebrities feel. Probably. All right. But this is also like has to be a little bit worse in the sense that there is no there's no TV, there's no photos, There's nothing besides actually going somewhere to create somebody out like that. That's fucking weird. Yeah. And it was said that Mary held herself with a modest decorum, and although she was friendly with and she was very nice to all of the people that came in, but if somebody was advancing on her too much, she would not be afraid to tell them and like, put them in her place because she was an independent, independent woman.

00:13:50:13 - 00:14:13:21

Kevin + Brandon

We'll try that one more time. Thank you very much. Like I said, after our last one, I'm like, I hope I do better this time because you could you couldn't say statistically, right? Yeah. Something. And then what was the other one that trap. Tragedy. Tragedy. you almost did it again. Anyways, so now at some point in time, Mary meets a man named Daniel Payne, and I could not find any information on where they met.

00:14:13:23 - 00:14:34:22

Kevin + Brandon

Except for that he may have possibly been somebody that was staying in the boarding house that her mother ran, but they ended up dating and getting engaged. So within this timeframe she met this man, Daniel, and got engaged. On July 25th, Mary left the city telling Daniel that she would be visiting her aunt and a few other family members that day who lived on Bleecker Street.

00:14:34:25 - 00:14:52:12

Kevin + Brandon

That evening there was a really bad thunderstorm that hit, and so when Mary didn't show up the next day, her family wasn't really too concerned about where she was because it was storming in there, like, yeah, we probably wouldn't come home either. Where would they have went? Well, I think it's really interesting because at the same time, this was the 1800s.

00:14:52:12 - 00:15:09:23

Kevin + Brandon

There were like there was no mass transit. There was sure, I feel like I would be you would have to physically walk or get a horse or do that kind of stuff. So they thought that she would just because of the storm stay, she was hanging out her feet under. Some guys her family got. yeah. Because she was like, Yeah, okay.

00:15:09:29 - 00:15:28:27

Kevin + Brandon

Which again, it's all in technically the financial district now, so we know it's not really that far. So I thought that was interesting. But this was also before like cell phones or geolocation. So it's not like she could go like, well before find my friends and see where Mary was. But this also wasn't the first time Mary had gone missing or didn't show up when she was supposed to.

00:15:29:01 - 00:15:52:23

Kevin + Brandon

So just a couple of years earlier, on July 15th, 1833, it was reported that Mary had disappeared from their home. So after going missing, Phoebe said that they had found a suicide note stating that she had a fixed in unalterable determination to destroy herself. Yeah. Weird. That's very. Okay. Yeah. Again, the way that they recognized her. Compelling, you know.

00:15:52:26 - 00:16:13:17

Kevin + Brandon

So, however, the next day I saw some sources that said the next day, some said a week later, Mary reappeared, saying that she ended up going to Brooklyn or the country again, maybe Brooklyn, like the cops. I literally have a note in here saying that Brooklyn was probably considered the country back then, that it probably really wasn't anything around.

00:16:13:19 - 00:16:33:00

Kevin + Brandon

But she said she ended up going to Brooklyn to visit a friend in the note was the hoax. Also, she didn't physically show up. The note did know she went missing. They couldn't find her, but her mom found a note that she had written o claiming she was going to Brooklyn or to die by suicide. fuck. So the hoax was that she wrote this note.

00:16:33:00 - 00:16:57:09

Kevin + Brandon

She was really just at a friend's house in Brooklyn. Okay. Okay. Well, this next time was a little bit different. The day after Mary second disappearance, everyone was expecting her to come home. When it got later in the evening. The next day, Daniel and Phoebe got super concerned and Daniel decided to head down to Bleecker Street to find her, which when I first was starting to do my research, I had typed it in here like anything, just reached out to find if Mary was there.

00:16:57:09 - 00:17:15:03

Kevin + Brandon

And I was like, Wait, I should probably actually clarify that they had to go physically walk down there because there was no phones, there was nothing on the and connect them with Daniel, who was a little bit baffled when he got there because when he knocked on the door and saw Mary's on her, let him know that they were not expecting Mary.

00:17:15:03 - 00:17:36:09

Kevin + Brandon

And she never showed up at the home that day when Mary went missing, people noticed her coworkers in the cigar shop, her friends or family, and even patrons of the shop. Like I said before, a lot of people hung out at the shop, including reporters. So various New York City newspapers started to have stories start going out about the missing cigar girl.

00:17:36:09 - 00:17:56:09

Kevin + Brandon

But Mary is the one who told her husband that she was going was going to meet her family at Bleecker Street. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So Mary told her mom and Daniel, well, she told Daniel, her fiancee, that she was going to her aunt's and family's house on Bleecker Street. Yeah, there was the storm. She never came home the next day.

00:17:56:09 - 00:18:21:15

Kevin + Brandon

You got it. Okay, I'm just trying to spell it out for. to help. Thank you. You're welcome. Anyways, then, three days after she went missing, Mary's body was found in the Hudson. So Daniel was the last person to ever see her alive. Once the body was discovered, the media coverage grew even more. They coined her as the beautiful cigar girl, and Mary story became local and national news, and they plastered her face all over the front pages of the newspaper.

00:18:21:16 - 00:18:42:24

Kevin + Brandon

One story of the New York Herald even had a testimony of her condition from the coroner, which I thought was really interesting. And his name was Richard Cook. And I'm going to try my best to read this one because it's just interesting, because it's also the coroner. I believe it's him speaking as he's looking at her, too. So the face was, what is this, Kevin Suffused.

00:18:42:26 - 00:19:18:23

Kevin + Brandon

Suffused. Suffused. Yeah. I'm really not that often. Don't know that word, but her face was suffused with dark blood, bruised blood. There was a frothy blood still issuing from her mouth. It says issuing. But I want to say using her face was swollen. There was an Eskimo smirk about the size of the shape of a man's thumb on her right side of her neck, near the jugular vein in two or three x marks on the left side, resembling the shape of a man's finger, which led me to believe that she had been throttled in partially choked by a man's head.

00:19:18:24 - 00:19:38:27

Kevin + Brandon

What does it mean to be throttled? I don't know, because I feel like we know many people who would love to be throttled. Throttled like thrown across the room. I was thinking like I would I assumed, like, throttled as in, like, took her in, like, pushed like, threw her up against something. Who do we know that wants to be throttled?

00:19:39:08 - 00:19:56:14

Kevin + Brandon

you're just kidding. my God. I'm like, what? Tell me the juice. I think it's interesting, though, that they found her and she still had it coming out of her mouth, even though she was in the Hudson. Right. But I'm sure it was just it says it was frothy blood. So I'm assuming it was like a mixture of like, you know, blood in the Hudson water or trash.

00:19:56:17 - 00:20:16:21

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah, I don't know. Then I have the dress was match torn. The outer dress was torn. A long slip, say a foot wide was torn up from the bottom of the frock to the waist. The dress immediately beneath the frock in between the upper petticoat had a piece torn clean off its garment, about a foot or 18 inches in with.

00:20:16:24 - 00:20:41:03

Kevin + Brandon

This piece was torn very evenly and with great care commencing at the bottom of the garment. The same piece was afterwards tied around her mouth with a hard not at the back part of the neck, I think to some other her cries. my God, Mary, you know. Right. The piece of fine lace trimming I spoke of, I observed a crease around the neck, passing my hand behind her ear.

00:20:41:03 - 00:21:02:02

Kevin + Brandon

I accidentally felt a small knot and found that piece of lace which I supposed to have. The trimming of her lace collar was tied so tightly around her neck as to have been hidden from sight in the flesh of the neck. This was tied in a hard not under the left ear. This would have strangled her. my God.

00:21:02:03 - 00:21:18:18

Kevin + Brandon

Right. And that's like just the report from the coroner, which I thought was interesting, since there's not much that there's some news articles and things that I could find, but I just thought that was super interesting that that was noted from the coroner. I'm kind of so stuck on the thumb print on her neck. Yeah, it does a lot of force.

00:21:18:19 - 00:21:40:08

Kevin + Brandon

I mean, if you think about it, it was probably it was just like wrapped around her neck. God, that's so rude, right? I guess killing is the root of grief. I feel like we can come up with a stronger word than they do. Like, rude. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, right after, right after the murder, Daniel was interrogated. Obviously, he has a fiancee He's going to have to be.

00:21:40:08 - 00:22:00:12

Kevin + Brandon

But after their questioning, they did dismissed him as a suspect. And then after the questioning, the police didn't have much to go off of. There's actually a bit where I saw that there was like over a week where the police didn't really have anything to say to people and people were like, what the fuck's happening? You know? But there were some conspiracies in Leeds that were either not looked into or dropped.

00:22:00:16 - 00:22:24:29

Kevin + Brandon

So I have seven of them here because there was quite a bit. First, the first theory was that Mary had a failed abortion attempt. There's theories that Mary's body was dumped by the local abortionist, Madame Bristol, and I don't I'm sure I'm not saying that right. It's super French, madame, But after the failed procedure, so allegedly that they had a bad abortion and threw her in the Hudson.

00:22:25:01 - 00:22:42:16

Kevin + Brandon

Why? Why would that really? Why would the abortionist kill her in that way? Right. Well, and it was I think it was like an accident. Like they were trying to give her an abortion and they accidentally strangled her. Right. yeah. Yeah. How they would have those marks. Well, that's why the police ended up taking that and being like, well, it doesn't match the.

00:22:42:17 - 00:23:03:23

Kevin + Brandon

Maybe that's not accurate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's weird. So I just have to go. I'm so sorry that we ruined your voice and we're going to kill you now. Yeah, I'm just going to strangle you to throw you against the Mary. You know, I'm sorry to laugh. Anyway, the next one. People believed that something must have happened when she disappeared the first time.

00:23:03:25 - 00:23:30:02

Kevin + Brandon

That it wasn't a hoax. That she left and came back. That it was a hoax. That she came back. Meaning that they believe she actually wanted to die by suicide, but that she either got scared or didn't happen so that she came back. And then they believe that this could have been potentially her going back and actually dying by suicide, which again, doesn't make sense, which is why it didn't it doesn't it didn't pass through the police because it really doesn't make sense to try to die by suicide.

00:23:30:02 - 00:24:01:05

Kevin + Brandon

And so, look, I don't think you can wrap up your I don't know that this is these were conspiracy theories made by people that weren't in the police. So it was people were coming up with ideas of what could have happened. People still believed it was Daniel. After his questioning, what adds to some odd speculation of this was that sometime after the death of Mary Daniel's body was found on a bench near where Mary's body had been discovered laying on a branch in the Sybil's cave area.

00:24:01:05 - 00:24:22:11

Kevin + Brandon

And there was a note stating to the world, Here I am on the very spot. May God forgive me for my misspent life. Daniel. Yeah. So that night, Daniel took an overwhelming amount of poison and done with all of his life? Yeah, with a very. Which killed the love of his life. So it's a very vague suicide note, Right?

00:24:22:11 - 00:24:48:00

Kevin + Brandon

So people either thought that it was admission to guilt that he he actually killed her, and then he's going to her spot because he's having a hard time and then did that. But then other people thought that it was just from the grief and could you not hear things being like you or they thought that it was him grieving his fiancee's number for a gentleman named James Finnegan was arrested for the alleged murder.

00:24:48:00 - 00:25:10:07

Kevin + Brandon

Murder The murder of the alleged murder. It was said that the police arrested the two gang members who confessed to being part of the crime and implicated James. And when they found James, James Woods randomly wearing one of Mary's rings, which didn't help the matter. But then after further investigation, the case against James was dropped and he was not convicted of anything.

00:25:10:07 - 00:25:29:14

Kevin + Brandon

So then there there is also talks of it being possible gang violence. Some days after they found the body, the rest of Mary's clothing and belongings were discovered in the woods near where the body was found in the water. So this was a bit surprising to some people because there was an investigation in the area. And so there were people everywhere.

00:25:29:14 - 00:25:49:18

Kevin + Brandon

And this was also at a time where there was no TV, there was nothing. So people actually went to go see where the crimes were instead of going to jump on a podcast to listen to two homeowners talk, they actually went to the place to see anyone, how they would have you would have one. People were thinking that the clothing was placed there after the murder and that it was an actual murder because of that.

00:25:49:19 - 00:26:06:10

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah. And then there was another story that an anonymous man wrote a letter to the coroner because at one point the police opened it up, to which I don't know if I have this. And in the rest of the story, I think I took this out. But the police opened up the the search and they put out in the newspapers.

00:26:06:10 - 00:26:31:14

Kevin + Brandon

They were asking for anybody who had any information and they offered an award for whoever gave information on the case. However, they also opened it up to people who could be implicated in the crime and said that they would give them immunity if they just told them who the murderer was. So if you were the murderer and you but you were part of it, say you're part of a group of people and you told them who actually did it, you would have.

00:26:31:16 - 00:26:50:05

Kevin + Brandon

Interesting. Couple days after that, somebody wrote an anonymous letter to the coroner, which I thought was interesting, that they sent it to the coroner, not the police. But they said that he was in the area in that evening and he saw a boat pulled to shore from the New York side containing six rough looking men and a well dressed girl who he recognized as Mary.

00:26:50:07 - 00:27:10:27

Kevin + Brandon

They came to shore and walked to the nearby woods. Eventually, a second boat arrived with three other men. But they had they they said that they were well-dressed men. These these three guys were well dressed. And eventually somebody comes out of the woods and it's alleged that he heard them asking if she came on her own accord or if they used any violence to get her there.

00:27:10:27 - 00:27:34:17

Kevin + Brandon

But there was no more to that. So that was where that ended. And then for the last one, there was a lot of accounts of people seeing Mary with some tall, well-dressed man on many occasions, like she was having an affair with a tall, well-dressed man to watch out for. They said he had a dark complexion, too. So one of those instances being the night of the murder, a keeper at an inn nearby said they were at the establishment and that they left and they headed for the woods.

00:27:34:17 - 00:27:58:06

Kevin + Brandon

And then soon after, they heard a woman scream. But because the inn was a place of questionable characters, they didn't really question it because it was a common occur there and just lots of screaming just coming out, a lot of women screaming. So well, they weren't sure after the autopsy. I won't try that again. You weren't going to like like nobody else listening would have occurred.

00:27:58:08 - 00:28:29:03

Kevin + Brandon

Yes, they would have. Anyways, after the autopsy, Mary was buried in Hoboken, but not for too long because her body was exhumed a short time later and reexamined for further examination. So which also had the press going wild. And I found an article from the New York Evening Post stating the body of this unfortunate girl was yesterday brought from Jersey to the city and deposited in the death house in the park, which I'm assuming that's like a corner or look.

00:28:29:06 - 00:29:05:03

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah, something like a corner. But the death house. The death house in the part that's literally this is copied and pasted in difficult it would be before the most imaginative mind to conceive a spectacle more horrible or humility humiliating to humanity. There lay what was but a few days back the image of its creator, the loveliest of his works, now blackened and decomposed mass of putrefaction painfully disguised sight and smell her skin, which had unusually fair, was now black as that of a negro.

00:29:05:05 - 00:29:35:22

Kevin + Brandon

Her eyes so sunk in swollen face as to not have the appearance of being violent, violently forced beyond the sockets with her youth, which no friendly hand that close in death was distended as wide as the ligaments of the jaw would admit. In war, the appearance of a person who had died from suffocation or strangulation, the remainder of the person was like the mass of purification and corruption, and which the worms were reveling at their will.

00:29:35:24 - 00:29:55:07

Kevin + Brandon

So yeah, that was from the New York Evening Post, which I suppose it's a really interesting way to describe how her body looked after a exhumation. Right. But even like the way they worded that and then they put it in the newspaper. Yeah. Was just is this really interesting? Because I mean, today it's it's like it's the same shit that they put on Dateline, right?

00:29:55:15 - 00:30:15:16

Kevin + Brandon

But I feel like putting that in the newspaper is so just like a modern way to say the same shit, right? Except that was like old school English to this day, Mary's murder has never been solved in the killer Still remains out there. He's dead. I know. He doesn't like David. Same as David. Daniel? Daniel. Daniel Payne. So Daniel's right?

00:30:15:16 - 00:30:44:24

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah. This is our first unsolved murder. my God. Did you guys ever watch Unsolved Mysteries? my God. I loved it. The music I loved, the man's voice was so creepy. So creepy. I grew up with that, and it scared the fuck. Yeah, well, I have one really interesting fact is that Mary story intrigued everybody at the time and being that one of the cigar shop patrons was Edgar Allan Poe, he was so fascinated by the case that he he claimed that his story, the mystery of Mary.

00:30:44:25 - 00:31:12:23

Kevin + Brandon

I don't even know how to say this part. Rosie was based on her life, although he changed the story from New York to Paris. In the story was of a woman whose body was found in the river scene with several possible suspects. That's so interesting. Yeah. Mary, I know. I wonder if it was Daniel Paine, because I could see how he would be upset that she, you know, died and then went to the same spot that she was last in, apparently, and then, you know, took his own life.

00:31:12:23 - 00:31:32:05

Kevin + Brandon

But I could also see him maybe being regretful. Yeah. That maybe he, you know, they got into a little thing and. Right. We'll never know. Goodness, nobody has known since the 1800s. And they're never going to know because that's a while ago it was this point. Yeah, just a little bit. Couple years. Mary. I kind of wanna go to the spot now in Hoboken.

00:31:32:05 - 00:31:50:02

Kevin + Brandon

Hoboken? Yeah. The photos of it is super creepy because it's like this like entrance, this gothic styled entrance. Yeah, but, like, I couldn't find any photos, like, recent photos of what looks what it looks like inside. Did you put the cover or part of it on the cover? Yeah. There's though there's an illustration of it and that's what I thought.

00:31:50:02 - 00:32:21:24

Kevin + Brandon

Okay. All right. Well, so that's my nice job, Right? Well, what do you got? What's your story? okay. So I know that we're going to do you know, our podcast is called Homicide, but we're not really just talking about gay people who murder, but we're giving you a little gay spin on murder in general. But this week, mine is both LGBTQ and AIDS, a murder in New York all made up just to all that made up just to say that.

00:32:21:24 - 00:32:42:09

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah. So basically, a lot of people know this because some movies have been made for me, like documentaries and more, but I've always been fascinated by it because of a gay kid, you know, coming out in the early 2000. This is about the club kid killer. It's a good one. So the story to any of you know, the Club kid killer and all this this guy chick.

00:32:42:10 - 00:33:04:19

Kevin + Brandon

Okay. So he was so good, too. So good. Yeah. This is the murder of somebody named Andre Angel Melendez, who was the victim. The cool thing about this specific thing, you know, getting to kind of the history about, like, the club kid movement and all this kind of stuff, but there's been a documentary made called Party Monster, which was eventually turned into a film that starred Macaulay Culkin and Seth Green.

00:33:04:22 - 00:33:23:18

Kevin + Brandon

It is a fantastic fantasy. You really great in it, too. my God. They're incredible. Which is like a classic. But I thought that the two characters that were in it, who Macaulay Culkin in screenplay, were two different characters than what they actually play like one of them I knew, but the other one, which was Seth Green's character I thought was somebody else, but it ended up being James Dean.

00:33:23:18 - 00:33:49:24

Kevin + Brandon

James Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, there's been a couple of other things. There's like a James that James did a memoir called Disco Bloodbath. And then there's another more recent documentary called Glory Days. The is The The Life and Times of Michael Alig, which gets me to. But James named James as the James James of World of Wonder, which is the production company of RuPaul's Drag, RuPaul's Drag Race, among many other types of things.

00:33:49:24 - 00:34:05:06

Kevin + Brandon

This is actually kind of cool. And if you're in New York City now or were in the eighties and nineties, you will know who they were or you'll know exactly these kind of landmarks. And this movement, the Club Kids, which was actually a term that was coined by New York magazine, I thought that they created the the toilet.

00:34:05:06 - 00:34:27:14

Kevin + Brandon

They didn't know, according to that, you know, according to several things. But yeah, New York magazine is actually who coined them the term club kids in 1988. So the club kids consisted of a bunch of New York underground partiers who were known for drug use, wild parties, artistic, queer and gender fluid, freedom and expression, flamboyant behavior and very avant garden outrageous looks.

00:34:27:21 - 00:34:47:20

Kevin + Brandon

They were a group of very brave and resilient people who put themselves out into the world, unafraid of others judgment. So if you think about like the eighties and nineties, particularly at the time, like art was really coming, spies obviously were coming off of some drug movements, but queerness was really what it was like at the forefront live at that point where it wasn't as well.

00:34:47:20 - 00:35:07:27

Kevin + Brandon

It wasn't legal at that time. Sure. Well, yeah, right. Yes. But it was a time of discovery. I think is probably the way that I would put it. But this same group was they were known for living these extravagant lifestyles, but they would go and put themselves on the talk shows. And Facebook was just like, yes, my God, this sells.

00:35:08:00 - 00:35:28:14

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah, but like face some really, really rough questioning in general. But they purposely would do that to, like, spread this movement of like forcing acceptance. And so they would travel the country and hold outrageous parties always pushing the boundaries of gender, politics, society and culture. My kind of people, they actually this group, the club kids, had a huge impact on the queer culture.

00:35:28:16 - 00:35:49:17

Kevin + Brandon

And so, you know, any young queer people research this because it's incredible and actually this particular murder is why the movement ended, which I didn't I didn't totally know. I think there's like some form of club kids still around. Sure. I mean, even just walked by a bunch of people on the street yesterday where I was like, you know, they're they're definitely club kids.

00:35:49:18 - 00:36:11:06

Kevin + Brandon

You did? Yeah. Because they were just, like, done up and painted. they looked amazing. Yeah, I mean, I wish I had that confidence walking down the street. I 100% in my normal clothes, like now or then. This group actually were so impactful because they created a space for rejected and youth that were gay, Christian, center nonbinary. Really anything, anything that was different or made them would make them feel different.

00:36:11:12 - 00:36:38:18

Kevin + Brandon

But really they were kicked up by their parents, all this kind of stuff. But it was they created a space for these types of people are people to experience the feeling of freedom. So freedom of expression, freedom from gender, just all of them. And it wasn't all based off of drugs, right? No. And in fact, it actually wasn't primarily based off of drugs initially, but when you think about when it started, drugs really came to the forefront, mostly these types of drugs in the eighties.

00:36:38:18 - 00:36:59:06

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah, the party drug addicts. Yeah. Yeah. That party drug era. So the interesting about the club kid movement too is that was actually built out of a need for relief due to the eighties and conservative politics that were kind of about in the eighties but also to really not move away from but deal with the AIDS crisis that was crippling the LGBTQ community at the time.

00:36:59:06 - 00:37:21:29

Kevin + Brandon

So say that's right. That's probably totally fine. Yeah. Technically, the New York Club kids were first established in this context in the late eighties by a guy named Michael Alig, and James had James. But other notable names that were included in this movement were RuPaul, Charles, Right, RuPaul, Julie, Jules, the DJ, Keoki and Ernie Glam. Some of those names I'm not familiar with now.

00:37:21:29 - 00:37:42:18

Kevin + Brandon

I am, but I wasn't. But obviously RuPaul being probably the biggest that most people these days. yeah, yeah. The movement actually grew into the nineties with Amanda, the poor and the wallpaper and Sofia Lamar wallpaper. Not like wallpaper, like you're putting wallpaper up. Like that was apparently somebody named Robert. How do you get the name? Nickname, Wallpaper.

00:37:42:22 - 00:38:04:25

Kevin + Brandon

You know, I think we should ask whoever wallpaper is very interesting. This one person, Michael Alig, is really kind of a notable character in the rise of the Club Kid movement. Realistically, when Andy Warhol died in 1987, the New York club scene that was happening during that I'm sorry, it like studio 54, all that like time period, which was like seventies and too that kind of died.

00:38:04:27 - 00:38:20:26

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah. And so out of a need to kind of revitalize that, this guy Michael Alig, teamed up with his friend James St James. Yeah. See, I don't think I knew that about Andy Warhol. Me neither. I knew he was big and had all these extravagant parties and stuff, but I didn't realize what that was like the Club kid era.

00:38:20:29 - 00:38:46:07

Kevin + Brandon

So it was like the pre club kid era. It was the like original that brought in sort of that freedom of expression and and all that kind of stuff that actually pushed Alig to team up with James, James and then grow it. So they basically started hosting these really kind of small parties and gatherings where people were able to have avant garde kind of costumes and paint their face and like, just do these really fun, extravagant things to feel artistic in their body.

00:38:46:10 - 00:39:08:09

Kevin + Brandon

Michael Alig started working with a known club owner of several clubs called Peter Gayton Gayton Catering or something, and he was known as the King of New York clubs. And so they teamed up and then they started throwing a whole bunch of parties at this. GAYTON Gayton owned New York City clubs. So you want to know what one of the most popular ones ended up being was the limelight?

00:39:08:15 - 00:39:27:13

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah. On the old church. Yes. Which is now like a mall or I think there's a pizza. There was a graham moldings, and I think Remold is still in the portion of it. Yeah, but it was like shopping. it was beautiful. Like a clothing store. It was a club. Like how fun going to a old church to party, which actually downtown Denver used to have a club called the Church.

00:39:27:13 - 00:39:44:05

Kevin + Brandon

And it was fucking cool. Yeah. Yeah, Well. it still has it. my God. I thought it closed. Shut the fuck up. my God. It's really cool. It Limelight is a very different style of look. It's a gothic. Yes, but the one in downtown Denver, they made the inside kind of cool. Like it's a fucking cool place anyway.

00:39:44:07 - 00:40:00:18

Kevin + Brandon

But Limelight, I kind of envisioned because I didn't get to go to it in that. Yeah, you know, and what it looks like then. But the limelight was on sixth and West 20th and it was basically a deconstructed church, right? So that was owned by this guy named Peter Gayton. Really cool thing. So basically kind of envisioned it, right?

00:40:00:18 - 00:40:22:20

Kevin + Brandon

So it's a whole bunch of like basically misfits that get together and like celebrate music and love and, and has these outrageous ceremonies to listen. God, Yeah. And it's all like queer people and just the acceptance of, you know, non-gender conforming people. It was just fucking incredible. The interesting thing about what they would throw and this is what I was telling you that I was going to tell you about, that I didn't know.

00:40:22:23 - 00:40:45:28

Kevin + Brandon

It's something called an outlaw party, the notorious. I mean, my mind goes to like a party of just criminals. Okay, Love that your mind went there, but no. So basically they would throw these things called outlaw parties, which basically what they would do Now, envision yourself in New York City, New York. There is I mean, where we are in New York City for all of you, not in New York City.

00:40:45:28 - 00:41:15:03

Kevin + Brandon

If you've been here. The grid is laid out specifically, but there's a lot of fast food chain restaurants. There's trans train stations everywhere, right. On particular lines and whatever. So in Chelsea, which is where this was, they would basically find the clubs that they would be usually throwing parties at, right? Yeah. They would choose a fast food joint or a train station somewhere near the club, and they would throw an outlaw party, which basically means they would flood the fucking area.

00:41:15:05 - 00:41:36:20

Kevin + Brandon

Loud music, outrageous just parties, which was illegal. They were outlawed. Right? So they called them outlaw parties. And what they would do, they would stage them by a club because then once the cops would come, they could all fucking flee and say that they would keep partying at the club. I was like, Imagine working that like behind the counter at McDonald's being like, what?

00:41:36:20 - 00:41:55:26

Kevin + Brandon

The final? That was my first thought. As somebody who has worked in food chain, the food industry being like, you're like that. And it's like, I'm the flipside. It's also like, wait a moment to clean this all up. Like, this is so fun and all that. But when you guys leave me on my shift, I'm going to clean up all that glitter or Taco Bell instead.

00:41:56:00 - 00:42:12:26

Kevin + Brandon

my God. I loved it though, because I'm like, How fucking cool. Like, are you magic tomorrow? And you're like, Yeah, but I imagined myself in that time and like, the idea of, like, this outlaw thing. But it's just so built in community and community. Yeah. And love and like a celebration of life. And I was like, that's fucking cool.

00:42:12:28 - 00:42:28:16

Kevin + Brandon

So they would all go and do these things. And so they were kind of known for like this, whatever, but it was like an underground thing. So only the club kids knew when it was going on, when it was happening, but the cops kind of would catch on ish and they would go like, break it and they would catch nobody really, because they would all be fucking gone.

00:42:28:18 - 00:42:49:18

Kevin + Brandon

So that's really cool. So the interesting thing about the club kids is that they achieved high status and basically ruled the New York club scene. So if you think about like the Studio 54 era and all that kind of stuff, take that and the the club kids owned that all led by this. Michael Alig So this was like at the same time that up in Harlem there was the Vogue.

00:42:50:05 - 00:43:06:19

Kevin + Brandon

yeah so interestingly enough solely ballroom. Yeah, the ballroom scene that was at the same time, right. Or is that like right, That was like it was pre. Yeah. So the ballroom scene, it was kind of at the same time, but the ballroom scene was actually a little bit earlier because this started in 1987 and Up Ballroom was still actually earlier.

00:43:06:22 - 00:43:26:27

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah. Which ballroom still around. Totally. Yeah. But not like it was like depicted in poster. See. Yeah. Yeah. All that to say Michael Alig who was this horrible dude now I'm sure will get some shit for saying that because there's definitely some club kids that are like alive today and like, really he did a lot for the community in general, but he was a fucking dick.

00:43:26:27 - 00:43:45:20

Kevin + Brandon

He was known as a shock artist, you know, the stark artist is was like Banksy. Very graphic things or, well, to shock. Yeah. There's a lot of, like, shock value Banksy is is one right. No. Yeah. Ish as one So March of 1996. So remember he kind of started this movement in 87 and then here we're in 19 1996.

00:43:45:20 - 00:44:20:07

Kevin + Brandon

So he's become a very popular dude. Yeah, but he was known for his horrible, nightmarish behavior. Like, awful. So here's a couple of things that he would fucking do. He would go up into a club and like the rafters of a club and he would take $100 bills and he would just throw them out and he would sit up there and watch as everybody would fight over these hundred dollar bills that were landing on the dance floor because these were all, you know, not people who had money and like he basically loved just seeing everyone, you know, fighting each other over these hundred.

00:44:20:11 - 00:44:40:20

Kevin + Brandon

So at first I was like, my God, that's so nice. He's giving money. Our hell no, that's not not that. So the other thing he would do and this is disgusting and he would in the same rafters pee on people below him because he thought it was funny. He was not into that pile. Thank you. I'm not into water sports, you know.

00:44:40:20 - 00:44:55:25

Kevin + Brandon

But he would also just not to say that it's a bad thing if you're into it. No, that's your thing. Do it. It's just not for me. Sure. You have too often, though. Yeah. Concepts like ask me to pee on me before. Just do it. Do what you need to do. But there needs to be consent and there are things off limits.

00:44:55:25 - 00:45:18:02

Kevin + Brandon

He would also pee in people's drinks just for fun, so they had no idea. So they're just drinking. So. So think about the type of person he is. He likes to see, you know, like a douchebag, Like he is awful. Like he liked the idea of mister. Yes. Yeah. So look. So it sounds pretty calculated to me. The other thing he would do and this tells you everything you know about him has any.

00:45:18:03 - 00:45:38:06

Kevin + Brandon

Okay. There was a certain thing I didn't include the word because I'm like, Who's going to know this word? But a term for I guess none of us know the you because I said I can't fuck, I can't remember. But anyway, he would basically purposely do a big and fake fall to purposely knock people over to let them get hurt.

00:45:38:09 - 00:45:51:29

Kevin + Brandon

And there's a term for this. But that's who he was. So it's like he was doing a trust ball, but nobody knew that he was. Do you know? Not even like he would just be like, goodness. And then knock people over just to hurt And they would hurt. Yeah, they would fall and he would just walk and walk away.

00:45:52:01 - 00:46:18:16

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah. So it's like a murderer fucker. Anyway. Okay. So apparently he was diagnosed with which I've never heard this histrionic personality disorder, which is basically it's characterized by like high levels of attention seeking behavior. So those things that make sense. Yeah, right. That he's like wanting this or whatever. Fucking weird by March so think about the club scene was like so fun and free and whatever except for this where well, it wasn't as bad initially.

00:46:18:16 - 00:46:34:21

Kevin + Brandon

And then it started to just really not that great. Then drugs came to play. By 1996, March of 1996, the club scene had turned kind of dark and it was people were far too into drugs. They were like, fucked out, fucked up, fucked up. Bummer that. Yeah, I know. And they just looked like they were out of their minds at this party.

00:46:34:21 - 00:46:51:09

Kevin + Brandon

It's like people were just fucked. So like, kind of this is awful to say, but, you know, around New York City and it's not only New York City, but across the world have people who, if they have a specific drug and I don't know what it is, but you see the people who are just bent over and like swearing and it's like a zombie drug, I think it's like it's fucking calling it a zombie drug.

00:46:51:11 - 00:47:10:29

Kevin + Brandon

Okay. So it kind of made me picture that, right? Yeah. So people just looked just fucked up. And I hate singing. It's awful, but kind of reminds me of that. So what was interesting is that Michael Alig, again, the guy was James that James that had created this kind of movement, turned into a junkie and he was bingeing every night and get this on a mixture of heroin special.

00:47:10:29 - 00:47:41:06

Kevin + Brandon

K I don't even know what this is. r0hyp in a well, rational person. Piano and cocaine. like that mixture. So that sounds fun. So like, so Mama was I think just one of those is fine. No, like, do some coke. Go do it. You need more than that. Than maybe. Yeah. Like, girl you need. So what was interesting was that he was living in a luxury two bedroom rental on the riverbank on West 43rd Street, but his apartment had become like a crack down.

00:47:41:08 - 00:48:02:28

Kevin + Brandon

So although he lived in, like, this, like a luxurious place, it was just like a drug den. Like people crack down all the time and all this kind of stuff. That's kind of according to a lot of accounts of people that knew him then. Sunday, March 17th, 1996, the murder all kind of go back. So earlier in the morning, 2 a.m., Alig had instructed Melendez, So remember who I talked about at the beginning?

00:48:02:28 - 00:48:24:18

Kevin + Brandon

This Angel Angels, his name. But Andre Melendez was infected and he goes by Angel. He did, and he did because, like, one of the things he was known for wearing was like this hat and these, like, these angel wings. Yeah. And he was I mean, if you look at it, look him up. That's all you'll see is heaven with angel wings on Angel, which I always think it's like because there's so much information about Michael, because he's the murderer, but there's like not a ton of information on Angel.

00:48:24:19 - 00:48:45:03

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah. Which I think is shitty. And I tell you, I have so many sources listed here and I could not find much information on it, which is really, really frustrated. But, well, that's all it ever it is. Whenever there's a murder, it's mostly about the person who did it, not the actual person who actually died. Which victim is kind of fucked up, you know, in the fact that we can't just like, say, celebrate their life, but instead, well, murder has come.

00:48:45:04 - 00:49:04:01

Kevin + Brandon

I mean, we're doing a murder podcast. It's kind of become like this, you know, But it's really interesting to be a better murder podcaster. So. Angel. Angel Andre Melendez. So he was born on May 1st, 1971. His family was from Colombia, and they moved to New York City when he was eight. And so he was kind of described as like a really quiet boy and very shy.

00:49:04:05 - 00:49:23:12

Kevin + Brandon

And he dreamed of becoming an actor and a filmmaker, which I can absolutely relate to. And I'm sure going to the being a part of the club Kid system helped get him out of all of that. Yeah, so here's what's fucked up though. So he was a 25 year old club kid who lived in Queens, right? But he was a part of the Webster Hall crowd, which I know works for Hall, but I didn't know that there was like a Webster Hall crowd.

00:49:23:14 - 00:49:43:19

Kevin + Brandon

Whereas the thing about the Webster Hall crowd, they were kind of rejected by the club kids. So I didn't know he was never an either, so he was never really fully accepted by Alig and his friends. So he wasn't treated that great, but he actually worked at the limelight and other clubs, including Webster Hall, and he was a drug dealer, so he would sell the drugs on the premises of the clubs.

00:49:43:19 - 00:50:00:27

Kevin + Brandon

So here's what's fucked up about how that whole thing went down. There's a whole FBI thing because of the owner, Peter, all of his clubs, they had knowingly started selling drugs. It was becoming like this whole corrupt thing, right? So he was a part of that. So he would go to these clubs and get paid for the night to sell drugs.

00:50:01:04 - 00:50:25:19

Kevin + Brandon

So jumping back to March 17, 1996, 2:00 AM, Melendez Angel went to the limelight to get into the club, to start to get paid like he would all the time. Yeah, to sell drugs. Well, Alig, who was kind of like this ring leader at this point for these clubs, told the bouncers to not let him in. And it happened like two other nights, I guess, previous to this too.

00:50:25:20 - 00:50:40:03

Kevin + Brandon

So they owed him some money cause that's how he got paid. So the reason that's in this comes from Michael Alig that he says that he didn't let them in or he instructed the bouncers not to let him in. It was because the FBI was looking into it and they had said that they would come that night to wrestle bunch of people.

00:50:40:03 - 00:51:08:15

Kevin + Brandon

And so he was like, no drugs tonight or whatever. Okay. Right. That's what he says. That happened a few nights in a row, like I said. So that particular day. So the guy was going to come multiple days in a row, apparently. Okay. Yeah. There's a couple of things that a lot of this account is from him, which is kind of annoying to me, but you know, it is what it is because he, you know, you'll see by 10 a.m. that next morning, on March 17th, Melendez went to Alex front door and was like, Give me the money, Angel would sometimes stay with Alig in general, so they were like, on and off again roommates,

00:51:08:15 - 00:51:36:11

Kevin + Brandon

which I think is really interesting. So they were roommates, which means they had some familiarity. Yeah, but they also didn't want him to come in. Bizarre. Like doesn't make any sense. There's not only one killer in this story, there's actually two. So Michael Alig and Robert, who was known as Freeze Riggs, came at the apartment that morning. Michael and Robert were at this apartment when Angel starts being like, Give me the money and all that kind of stuff.

00:51:36:14 - 00:51:54:16

Kevin + Brandon

What happened first? And this again, is mostly from Michael Oleg's account. Angel came in and Freeze immediately started making fun of his hat and wings. And so which is something I guess they would do, which is fucked up. Alig actually describes this next part as like a silly pussy cat fight, which I think is incredibly offensive once you hear what happened.

00:51:54:16 - 00:52:21:23

Kevin + Brandon

Cathy Yeah, but basically Alig says that Riggs told Melendez, We only let you hang out with us because you have drugs, which I think is in the movie. I'm pretty sure that was. Yeah. So according to a leg, there was a scuffle which sent him Michael flying into a glass cabinet. And I put in. Okay, well, but also, like, if you're if he was a drug dealer and you're saying you're not going to pay him, you know, like, that's rude.

00:52:21:26 - 00:52:43:14

Kevin + Brandon

You should get your ass kicked. Like, you should be throttled, you know? my God. Brandon So anyway, there was this scuffle, right? And a saying that basically Melendez or Angel sent him into this class cabinet and that a piece of glass pierced his back and he started bleeding profusely, which led to I mean, it was just like a little scratch or it didn't happen.

00:52:43:14 - 00:53:03:18

Kevin + Brandon

But basically, he says that Melendez started biting him. Okay, because of that scenario. Freeze. The other guy that was in the apartment grabbed a hammer that just happened to be lying around. But also I said there was like a different account, that it was like in the closet. Okay. And started hitting Angel in the head with what they say.

00:53:03:24 - 00:53:19:14

Kevin + Brandon

Freeze kind of tells a different version of this a little bit. And then Michael elected but basically hit him in the head with like the not the middle part of the hammer but like the handle like four times he hits him with that which incapacitates him. Right? It didn't kill him, but it like knocked him down. And whatever.

00:53:19:17 - 00:53:43:00

Kevin + Brandon

It's alleged at this point that there's there's a lot here. But basically what Alig ended up doing was, I guess, getting a sweatshirt and wrapping it around his fists and just beating Angel's face then and then eventually just suffocates him, but in the same process, decides to fuck around and injected him with Drano into his veins. I remember that.

00:53:43:00 - 00:54:03:22

Kevin + Brandon

And then he takes Drano and shoves it into his throat and duct taped his mouth shut. And then they're like, And I'm sorry, what did you say? He called this like a cat fight. Is a cat fight a silica? I've never had Drano near my cat. I'm just kidding. I just think that was stupid. it was really funny.

00:54:03:25 - 00:54:28:13

Kevin + Brandon

That was your dad. You're welcome. That's all right, Wayne. That's really funny. So fucked up, right? So just imagine the scene. It's just, like, disgusting. So then they're like, Well, we thought he was just sleeping, you know? It's okay, you know? So that's poison. Yeah. So they say that they laid him on the couch after thinking that he was just unconscious, but then realized he was dead a few hours later.

00:54:28:15 - 00:54:49:05

Kevin + Brandon

They claim this originally in general, that this was self-defense. So you wouldn't be like, he's not moving. Let's just let him lay here for a few hours. You'll see where they fucked up at the time. Yes. So they were on drugs for sure, Like always. On drugs. Well, all of the 12 that you listed. Yes. However, there are accounts by several people in the club.

00:54:49:05 - 00:55:13:16

Kevin + Brandon

Kid like, you know, collective that actually say that a leg was talking about killing Angel before that. so it like makes it look premeditated. Yeah but still saying no you know but like why why this guy just because he didn't want to pay him for the drug. There's actually an account that there was something about Angel that challenged Alex's status.

00:55:13:19 - 00:55:32:21

Kevin + Brandon

And, you know, he, like, owed him money. So it's popularity, too. If he's the guy with the drugs, he looks more would also think like this attention seeking thing. Yeah. So like he and they do this in the movie where angels like portrayed as like this like amazing kind of character and I'm sure you know, he was but it takes away from like this popularity and ever that's kind of like a theory.

00:55:32:22 - 00:55:50:16

Kevin + Brandon

But here's what's interesting and this is this is not done. After the murder, they decided to after they realized he was dead, they started they decided to cover up the murder because they just didn't want the party to end. And I literally said, whatever the fuck that means, right? So they just didn't want to get caught for what they did.

00:55:50:16 - 00:56:12:01

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah. So what they did your party of life? Yeah. You don't want that. So they took Angel his body and they put him into their bathtub, doused him in Drano. I know what their obsession was to try now and baking soda. And. And I quote a few liberals Spritzes of Calvin Klein Eternity, cologne, which we all know what the fuck that smells like.

00:56:12:04 - 00:56:30:05

Kevin + Brandon

That's right. The gayest thing, too. Yeah. They covered him with ice and left him in the bathtub for 8 to 9 days. And it is discussing. They threw parties at the apartment with his body in the bathroom. Didn't know what he had to use the bathroom. That was my question too. Was there more than one bathroom? I don't know.

00:56:30:05 - 00:56:45:29

Kevin + Brandon

I mean, is that true? Eventually, I'm sure that, like, there's a smell that comes back. Sure. I guess if there's a lot of Drano, that chemical smell might. so disgusting. Anyway, so once they kind of got out of like a little bit of drug stupor that they were in at the time, they decided, my gosh, we should probably get rid of his body.

00:56:45:29 - 00:57:08:28

Kevin + Brandon

Right. Because it was starting to smell. And the apartment freeze went to Macy's, you know, just the little shop and went to Macy's and bought some kitchen knives and came back to dismember his body. This is how a leg talks about it. We did it. This is a quote from him to The New York Post. He said, We did it quickly, cutting up the joints.

00:57:09:06 - 00:57:27:27

Kevin + Brandon

There was really no blood because it had all dried because it was eight days. So what they did was they put his legs in a duffel bag and put his head and torso into a TV box and hopped into a cab. And my guys went down to the river at the Intrepid, which is where they threw the duffel bag.

00:57:28:05 - 00:57:47:28

Kevin + Brandon

And then they went to 26th Street at the Hudson and threw in the TV box into the river. So the interesting thing is that after this, Alig walked around for months bragging about killing him. But because everyone was so used to him being so outrageous, they didn't believe him. They were like, whatever, he's just saying that for attention, which is really interesting.

00:57:47:28 - 00:58:03:06

Kevin + Brandon

Imagine him, somebody telling you that and you being like, Yeah, okay, yeah. Melinda's his brother, and here's what's fucked up about New York City at that time, especially for the LGBTQ community. The police. The police didn't give a fuck no. Right? So basically he went missing. Nobody could find him in the police. Like, okay, his brother Melendez, his brother.

00:58:03:06 - 00:58:21:25

Kevin + Brandon

So Angel's brother Johnny. So the pacing of posters all over Manhattan trying to look for him and trying to like, force the police to be like, Please help me find my fucking brother. Right. But of course they just didn't give a fuck. So this is just a side note that apparently there's some talks about like motives in general, but he basically stole, I guess, $2,000 from Melendez.

00:58:21:25 - 00:58:47:14

Kevin + Brandon

And then after he killed Angel Melendez, he stole another 18,000 from his personal drug money stash to refurbish his apartment for refurbished purpose. So he's just like an overall great dude. I know of groping in people's drinks. And then April 12, 1996, Melendez is like this Torso washes ashore in Staten Island. A group of kids finds it. Now, could you imagine, like playing and be like, Yeah.

00:58:47:23 - 00:59:06:26

Kevin + Brandon

my God. Yeah, That's is awful. Awful. That is so awful. So it's April 12 now. Does everybody know who Michael Musto is? He's like a reporter for The Village Voice. Now, the name is kind of sounds. Yeah, he's like RuPaul was really? They were. Yeah. Anyway, he's still actually a reporter for the Voice of the Village Voice.

00:59:06:26 - 00:59:28:29

Kevin + Brandon

So anyway, he actually did a piece reporting the rumors about Oleg's involvement in Milan's death in the Village Voice column. He didn't use any names, but it was everyone knew it was him. So he did that piece, right. So that's April 26th. Fast forward to November 2nd of 1996. Melendez His remains were finally identified with dental records, and that's because another body was found in the Hudson.

00:59:28:29 - 00:59:47:19

Kevin + Brandon

And they were like, yeah, we have that like Jane Doe like, right? Or John. So they didn't even like tests to see. Not at the time, no. His remains were identified with dental records and then November 1996, now because of the Village Voice piece and all these other things and talks or whatever, they kind of knew Alig and freeze, right?

00:59:47:26 - 01:00:14:11

Kevin + Brandon

November of 1996, Riggs was arrested and confessed immediately, and Riggs was the was freeze was arrested and confessed immediately. And then shortly after that, Alig was also arrested and confessed, but claimed self-defense. So there was no trial because the FBI were trying to go after that Peter guy, the club owners. So they didn't want to charge these guys with first degree murder because they wanted them to go and because it was better for them to get the club.

01:00:14:11 - 01:00:40:23

Kevin + Brandon

So October 1996, prosecutors were hesitant to charge them, both of them with first degree murder, because they wanted them to testify against their former boss Peter Gatlin or Gaytan. So both of them eventually took a plea deal, pleading guilty to manslaughter and only being sentenced to 10 to 20 years. So fucked up. And he came in like I remember the news of him getting out of prison, which to me is if you're convicted of murder, you shouldn't be.

01:00:40:26 - 01:01:08:18

Kevin + Brandon

If you dismember a person, you should not. Thank you. Yeah, you know what? If is you know how it feels like to cut a body up. you should not be able to be around bodies unless you're a surgeon. Unless you're a surgeon? Yeah. Okay. So March 2010. All right, So remember, they got basically the October 1997 is when they, you know, did the whole thing and pled guilty to manslaughter, which is just right.

01:01:08:20 - 01:01:25:25

Kevin + Brandon

It's just so crazy to me that it's legal for the justice system to say, you murdered this person, but I need your confession for something else, so I'm going to give you a better deal and fuck everybody that has to go through that trauma of losing something. We'll just. Angel's family. I mean, that's just for their own gain.

01:01:25:25 - 01:01:43:03

Kevin + Brandon

Just so that they look better for their bosses and stuff like that. So. And just remember the kind of person he was that was awful. Yeah, he was. So interestingly enough, Robert. So. Freeze! Freeze! Riggs. Robert. Freeze! Riggs. He was released on parole for good behavior in March of 2010, so he actually remained on probation until November 2016.

01:01:43:03 - 01:02:01:03

Kevin + Brandon

So really, the person who ended up killing him was Oleg, because he was just kind of unconscious from being hit in the head. Yeah. And then but the actual murder was. Yeah, but then he they both dismembered his body along with he's more of like an accomplice. Accomplice. Her ex. Yeah. But they both obviously dismembered his body together.

01:02:01:05 - 01:02:19:09

Kevin + Brandon

And then when they were doing I, I'm sorry, I don't know if I know anybody in my life that I'd be like, I would cut up a body for you. Yeah, Like, I love you. I would do that. I would bring him in. I would be like, What the fuck are you doing by that? GROSS No, but basically they did it along with ten bags of heroin or something like that, or cocaine.

01:02:19:15 - 01:02:43:24

Kevin + Brandon

ROBERT Freeze. So he was on probation until November of 2016. So he was out. What's interesting about him is that he actually went on to get a B.A. in anthropology from John Jay College of Criminal Justice and received a fellowship to pursue a Ph.D. in sociology from NYU. So now he's an associate researcher for a prison initiative at Bard College in New York and and maintains a super low profile, which I think is really, really interesting.

01:02:43:24 - 01:03:03:16

Kevin + Brandon

That is because May of 2014, Alig was paroled after serving 17 years in prison, not enough. And came back to New York City. Yeah. And claimed to be rehabilitated and tried to have a resurgence. I remember that locally. I remember there was a lot of we lived here that yeah, there was a lot of press in there was here now.

01:03:03:16 - 01:03:17:03

Kevin + Brandon

But you know, even World of Wonder did a lot of like stories about him at the time like they wanted to try to help him too. Yeah. He was like trying to pitch all this kind of shit. Yeah, whatever. And it also doesn't feel like it was that long ago. Like it feels like it was just a couple years ago.

01:03:17:03 - 01:03:37:23

Kevin + Brandon

So what's interesting, though, is so may or not May, but in 2017, Alig finished his parole. That's when he tried to resurrect himself. But he was in the gay scene here. He was like going out. He had a curfew 8 p.m. purposely. I'm sure that the parole board did, so he couldn't really be out, but he still was like he was still out in the community, like, it's crazy.

01:03:37:23 - 01:03:57:22

Kevin + Brandon

So anyway, for sirens to go off to 100%, if you can hear the fast forward a little bit December of 2020, Alig actually died over not too far from where we live here on the Upper West Side. Just a little bit further up of a drug overdose at age 54 is about that. I want to say good. No, I mean, I completely agree.

01:03:57:25 - 01:04:15:14

Kevin + Brandon

And this is what's really annoying to me. When I started researching this, every fucking article that I could find was really only about him, his death and his impact on the whatever, which yes, he had a huge impact on the LGBTQ culture and certainly the club kid. And just like creating these spaces. Yeah, but not everybody. But it doesn't negate.

01:04:15:14 - 01:04:32:00

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah. No, just because he killed some things and you've, you've helped the community, it doesn't mean that you're a good person. You know, you've killed somebody, you're an asshole and you are a fucking asshole. Also, you owed him money, you bitch. This was your fault. and if you haven't seen the movie, you should really go see it, because it's actually really good.

01:04:32:00 - 01:04:51:12

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah. And actually, I want to now that I know about this other documentary that's actually streaming right now, I don't know what on, but that glory days, the life and times of Alig, Michael Alig. I do want to watch it, even though it's about him, because I want to. I want to it's so interesting, even hearing it from him is like it gives you a different perspective on who he was as a person.

01:04:51:14 - 01:05:12:07

Kevin + Brandon

You get to realize even more how shitty he is. Yeah, but it's also interesting to think about the landscape of Chelsea now because like the the new gay areas now and like Hell's Kitchen area realistically, but even when I first moved here, it was still very much in Chelsea. But that area is just so different now. So even where the limelight was, think about the club kids in that area.

01:05:12:09 - 01:05:33:15

Kevin + Brandon

You know, when we saw that guy last night, it was in Hell's Kitchen. It went from 56 to us. So it's very much different injuries from what what it was before. So I wish I could go back and like see a little bit and experience. Yeah, yeah. That time. And it's funny because I came out in 2004 and 1996, 2004, it's not that long in general.

01:05:33:17 - 01:05:50:05

Kevin + Brandon

And yeah, and I don't remember. I mean, I was, you know, in a northern Colorado country town as a gay kid. So, you know, it's not like I was very close to, you know, that's different. Yeah, but it's it's interesting just the the impact of the gay call because you think about it now, RuPaul's Drag Race. RuPaul was a part of that.

01:05:50:05 - 01:06:06:10

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah. As a part of that group, you know. Yeah, I mean, a lot of content I remember seeing and some YouTube videos, the shows that they would go on and RuPaul was one of the many people up there talking about being a club kid and this and that. Yeah, it's actually really interesting to just do like a little dive on YouTube on yeah, on them.

01:06:06:10 - 01:06:23:17

Kevin + Brandon

And I'm pretty sure Sally Jessy Raphael did have them on. I'm pretty sure. Sally That was like more Jerry Springer than on on then. I don't think Jerry Springer was on then. I can't remember. But it was like Maury Povich. Povich I think. Montel Williams my God. And there was Ricki Lake. Ricki, you. my God. Ricki Lake.

01:06:23:23 - 01:06:42:09

Kevin + Brandon

God. Those shows are fucking weird. I used to actually, like, love coming home from school because we were latchkey kids back in the day. My parents just had latchkey kids. Means that you didn't like you or you were trusted at your house without supervision. So like, we didn't have. I've never heard of that term. Yeah. Latchkey, I don't know.

01:06:42:10 - 01:06:59:29

Kevin + Brandon

Generational. It is. We should actually look at that. But I'm sure it probably has some meaning behind it that better than what I can say. But basically we didn't have your after school TV, my brother or sister and I would go home and we would be at home by ourselves. Self Well, until my parents came home. So we didn't have supervision.

01:06:59:29 - 01:07:15:08

Kevin + Brandon

We didn't have, yeah, you're not going to watching us anything. I mean, I grew up in foster care mostly at that same age that you were. So it was really different. Yeah. Which I don't I think you can probably get into a lot of trouble if you leave your children at a young age like that at home by them.

01:07:15:08 - 01:07:36:12

Kevin + Brandon

So your brother's like five years older than you. I mean, it's not. Yeah, but this was still we were still young. We still like there was one day that my sister wanted to get ice cream out of a Ben and Jerry's container. And instead of doing the smart thing by taking a spoon, she took a steak knife and right through the container into her hand and gushing blood everywhere.

01:07:36:12 - 01:07:59:12

Kevin + Brandon

And my brother and I were down in the basement working out on the workout equipment. You know, and she's screaming, Blood's coming out of her hand. I'm cleaning it up. My brother's trying to call my mom at her office because I don't even think we had cellphones. She had a cell phone. It was landline, bitch. Yeah. And then my mom didn't know what was happening until she drove home and she saw an ambulance at our house.

01:07:59:25 - 01:08:18:21

Kevin + Brandon

my God. The coma. Yeah, I can just imagine. I it in an ambulance. I think so, because we called her office and we had we, like, talked to her boss or something like that. my God. Interesting. Well, yeah. So that's why you shouldn't be latchkey kids, you know, it's. Yeah, interesting. Well, well, there we go. That was good.

01:08:18:21 - 01:08:36:04

Kevin + Brandon

That was a good story. Yeah. Yeah There's a lot more that I could have dug in, but I was like, That's a fucked up thing. And it's a fucked up the murders fucked up in general. But we have fun talking about it too, and it's a good segway to our next episode will be Yes. Which being that were Homicide.

01:08:36:07 - 01:09:00:03

Kevin + Brandon

The podcast was spoken by gay men talking about stories. We're actually going to do queer murders next week. Yeah, well, queer murderers. Queer murderers? Yes. Let's be more specific. Murder. Hearst's murder, Hearst murderers. Who happened? Murder. Hearst. Queer of some degree. Yeah. Some kind of identifying as queer, which kind of excited. For us, today's was, like a crossover.

01:09:00:03 - 01:09:23:18

Kevin + Brandon

It was, but New York and queer. But yeah, but I loved it because that's such an interesting story. It's also like a very iconic New York City queer culture murder, which is really, really fucking interesting. Was not queer culture. No, no, no. That's for sure. You'll be hearing on October 31st. We hope you fucking love it. Be sure to rate us five stars.

01:09:23:18 - 01:09:38:05

Kevin + Brandon

Yes, clearly. Subscribe to our channels. Subscribe to us on Tik Tok. And just remember, if you're a dick, we're going to have a segment. We're going to call you out, mother fucker. So don't come on to our platforms and be a bit because we will call you out or do or do it because that'll be because it'll be kind of fun.

01:09:38:05 - 01:09:59:29

Kevin + Brandon

Yeah, Yeah. So we welcome that. You know, we joked about calling them hate crimes of the week. Yeah. So Jesus. Anyway, we'll get some. Yeah. Thanks for listening. And let's do a little twinkle moment. You're such a homo. Bye bye.